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MFA: We appreciated the use of quotation marks to cause the reader to question exploitative and speciesist words. What role do you think semantics play in social change?

Nibert: The continued oppression of both humans and other animals depends upon the widespread and common use of words and phrases that devalue them. The mistreatment of other animals is seen as natural, and derogatory or distancing language helps to legitimize their use and mistreatment. Words like "hogs," "rodents," "furbearers," "livestock," and phrases like "killing two birds with one stone" and "your goose is cooked," all condition humans to accept the low status and "otherness" ascribed to other animals, and thus, their continued mistreatment. Even the use of the term "non-human" animal -- like one of its counterparts in the area of ethnic stratification, "non-white" -- implicitly represents human animals as the norm and other types of animals as outside the norm, thus reinforcing their quality of "otherness." Other words -- such as "meat" or "beef" instead of "animal flesh" or "cow flesh" -- are euphemisms that mask reality and help humans overlook the true nature of their relations with other animals. Such uses of language need to be revealed and challenged. The use of appropriate, respectful words representing other animals should be nurtured and promulgated as part of any effective challenge to an oppressive social system.

MFA: In arguing for a movement towards a sociological approach to animal rights, you advocate speaking in terms of groups of people acting certain ways rather than individuals. This includes a critique of animal rights activists’ tendency to focus on the actions of individuals. Where do you think individual actions come into play in the animal liberation movement?

Nibert: In Animal Rights/Human Rights, I maintain that the movement for the liberation of other animals will be limited in its effectiveness if the primary focus of change is on individual consciousness and morals as they pertain to our treatment of other animals. While such transformations in individual consciousness are necessary, individuals must also develop awareness about the culpability of the capitalist system in promoting oppression. Movement strategies should be geared both to educate the public about the injustice and atrocities that are at the base of our daily existence and the suffering of the oppressed and to make them aware of the necessity of a substantial social transformation.

MFA: In Carol Adams’ book, The Sexual Politics of Meat, primitive human hunting and gathering and the gender differences between diets and lifestyles are approached in a different way. Adams argues that meat has always been the food of the ruling class and patriarch. In Animal Rights/Human Rights, the focus is placed more on the differences between gender dynamics before and after the agricultural revolution. Why did you decide on this focus?

Nibert: I have learned a lot from the work of Carol Adams and other eco-feminists and admire Adams for being one of the first to point to the fact that "meat" has been consumed largely by the privileged and by males since organized hunts of other animals began about 20,000 years ago. My analysis supplements this idea by suggesting that the hunting of other animals not only produced "food" primarily consumed by the ruling class and patriarchy but that it also was entangled with the origins of the systematic subordination and oppression of women -- and eventually became entangled with countless systems of oppression, past and present.

MFA: Many animal liberationists also identify as anarchists. They argue that without getting rid of larger institutionalized power systems, we cannot dismantle human power over other animals. How would you respond to this perspective?

Nibert: I am not sure getting rid of large state structures will necessarily reduce oppressive arrangements, especially if the capitalist culture remains intact. In any case, in a world that will be populated by more than 9 billion human animals by 2050 -- with the majority living in urban areas -- coordination of resource management and distribution will be imperative. However, it is essential that such coordination be democratic and egalitarian, and not dictated by profit taking transnational corporations. Localized food production and distribution will be integral in the development of a sustainable global system. Human power over other animals may be impossible to reverse. However the inclination for humans to use that power to exploit other animals, especially for the economic reasons that ground most types of their oppression, will be far more likely to be reduced in a more egalitarian, democratic global system.

MFA: This book is a good read for leftists, especially socialists, because it takes leftist perspectives, integrates them with animal rights perspectives, and makes an argument for a broader social critique. What do you think is the most valuable lesson an animal rights activist of any political orientation can take from Animal Rights/ Human Rights?

Nibert: One of the key points I have tried to make in Animal Rights/Human Rights is that the primary reason for the oppression of humans and other animals -- past and present -- is material gain. Today, the capitalist system is deeply rooted in the mistreatment and exploitation of humans in the Third World, workers of all stripes, consumers, women, humans of color and, of course, other animals. While advocates for other animals tend to vilify specific individuals or companies (of course, that characterization is often justified), many are becoming aware of the deep cultural and institutional roots of many of these atrocities. Such practices occur because they are profitable. Only a profound change in the economic and cultural system will substantially reduce these outrageous policies and practices. This is not at all likely to happen within the capitalist system which depends on oppression for its survival. Thus, advocates for other animals need to continue to increase their sensitivity to, and cooperation with, liberation movements of all types that ultimately are working to bring about a real democratic, egalitarian and environmentally sustainable social order.

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